imho maybe it is a public health issue but honestly public health officials are stretched really fucking thin on the ground rn and should not be opening another front while antivaxxers are on the march
@jeffcliff@Moon maybe don't let companies with histories of fraud and bribery charges get special liability protection for their experimental bullshit and you wouldn't have an antivaxxer problem
@Moon@jeffcliff basically you give a smallpox vaccine to 99 people and nothing bad happens. then you give it to one person and they get paralyzed. then you get sued by their family and pay millions of dollars in damages.
even with the low incidence rate the damages were so high that it wasn't viable.
so they got lobbyists (and i think fauci helped with this, if i remember the RFK book) to basically deprive everyone of their legal rights for money.
i don't know about you but i can't remember the last time a product was so reliable they cancelled the warranty service.
There's a special federal court for all vax injury cases. Rules of evidence are unique, skewed against plaintiffs and you have to be pre-approved to bring a case. If one vax causes too many payouts, they change the rules to no longer approve those cases because it would deplete their payout fund. Oh right, because even if you win in kangaroo vax court, it's the tax payers who pick up the tab, not one dime from corpos.
That at least makes some sense, during a public health crisis the risk should be spread across the public.
The only part about that that doesn't make sense is that people willfully sue in the first place and somehow you feel it necessary to encourage this by bringing this court up.
@Moon@incognitum@jeffcliff i'm going to reiterate that the profits went right to pfizer. why should they enjoy free money but the tax payers suffer the penalties?
@icedquinn@incognitum@jeffcliff I am not arguing for a specific way of doing it I'm just saying we need vaccines and private industry has the experties to do it, not government. so somehting has to be worked out
@Moon@incognitum@jeffcliff general scientific consensus was that the pandemic should not have been used for power grabs and monopolies. companies and universities asked for liability protection because oxford was literally selling at-cost.
gates et all opposed open sourcing the vaccines because... it was a great opportunity for profit. especially since anyone they kill, well, the state will pay for it :youmusip:
i honestly can't grasp why people are so brainwormed by these things. vaccines are low on the list of medical innovations but the damn things are treated like Jesus himself. (the #1 medical innovation was, well, soap. followed by antibiotics.)
>companies and universities asked for liability protection because oxford was literally selling at-cost.
they would have asked anyway
and they would have been given it anyway
because everyone with a brain knew the antivaxxers would abuse any wiggle room and the vaccine effort would be delayed as a consequence [just as they did]
And sure, the US govt and others should have required the solution to be patent-free in retrospect.
"Patent-free" doesn't help much when the hoops to bring "free" drug to market averages over 1bn.
Fediblob Bio-Tech Startup, Inc. never gets to shot 1 in arm 1 at that rate.
And while Uncle Sam is backing up dumptrucks of cash to pharma corpos, where did their billions in regulatory fees go? Or right, to writing infinite new red-tape on Fediblob Bio-Tech Startup, Inc. We never get our foot in the door without a Hunter equivalant on our Board of Directors.
@icedquinn@incognitum@jeffcliff@Moon I worked for a company that received a warning letter for their horrible equipment maintenance practices from the FDA. We risked being shut down. To fix it they hired a guy from the FDA, paid him handsomely for two years to do fucking nothing. He then left and returned to the FDA and our troubles were gone. No changes to internal procedures or maintenance practices. Funny how that works.
@jeffcliff@icedquinn just to be clear what's your actual position here, that vaccine companies should have immunity from civil suit? earnest question, not leading, just want to know.
I want vaccines too, but yes the liability could wipe out the ability to make vaccines. I have thought about the idea of government insurance.
@Moon@jeffcliff
> I have thought about the idea of government insurance.
putting things in someone's body without consent is a hard red line.
and disconnecting a for-profit corp from liabilities removes any skin in the game to make better, safer products. that's why anything other than the classical process of letting them be sued like literally everyone else is morally correct.
@jeffcliff@icedquinn I don't think public health was ever meant to include things like violence, there are already existing processes for dealing with those problems. The reframing only exists because they're looking for any path they can exploit to gain their policy goals. Behavior like that should be resisted on principle.
@Moon@icedquinn@jeffcliff i mean gay sex is done for pleasure not to get AIDS. guns always are used for killing people, for fun too but you could argue thats insignificant given the cost of life
@meso@icedquinn@jeffcliff telos does not matter, the public health thing is a reframing to try to make problems objective, not moral. the public health objection to guns is "guns by existing increase violence".
if you want to go the telos route, shooting is a means to an end. it is hard to measure the value of guns because you can't objectively record every attack/theft that did not happen because the existence of a gun deterred that crime.
i got tired of having to explain game theory to modern leftists.
the existence of finding out is what makes people choose not to fuck around. this sometimes fails and has to be reasserted (taleb calls this antifragility) but it kind of works.
the opposite of antifragile systems are ones that look like they work but rot on the inside until total systemic collapse ensues.
@icedquinn@eris@Moon@jeffcliff all real communists are pro-gun, how else are you gonna kill all the rich people retard, youre just gonna be like oh man its time to go ask the system to arm me so i can destroy it
> The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens’ militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed.
in theory armed socialism and armed communism should be no issue. the problem is that every "revolution" is actually just a power grab by lesser elites, and their interest in populism is purely machiavelian.
@icedquinn@eris@Moon@jeffcliff@meso and the "real and true communists (Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-principally-Maoist-Trotskyist-Posadist-with-Free-Market-tendencies-Hoxhaist-Anarchists)" are only found online or in parent's basements/garages :SadClownCat:
@Moon probably because they were successful in demonstrating everyone just surrenders if you say there's a virus or something.
SCOTUS wrist slapped CDC for violating rent contracts, CDC immediately reissued, no contempt charges. might as well just claim everything is a health crisis.
@NonPlayableClown@Moon idk they just sort of happen. there are some indicators like too many men and not enough wombs, or when food costs get to about half a day's wages, or when too many men in general have no will to live.
i think the kill ratio for society is something around 5% disaffected.
davos is very.. sketched, i think. i suspect the USA is well above 5% disaffection, and armed, but very much bread and circused, since all their wargames include an outcome where total loss of the control grid ensues from their next move.
@NonPlayableClown@Moon when they go act in the colonial areas they just run roughshod over everyone. australia and nz in permanent lockdowns for a year, canada outright stampeding cops over grannies. they beta test the shit out of plans before coming to the USA.
i can't imagine why you would do that, other than being actively concerned that the USA has met that instability threshold and you need to make sure its been wargamed and proven so you don't get drug behind the woodshed and shot.
>idk they just sort of happen. there are some indicators like too many men and not enough wombs, or when food costs get to about half a day's wages, or when too many men in general have no will to live.
Not really
That's the sort of bullshit the French tell themselves in order to justify their revolution wasn't bullshit.
It's all about money, pure and simple.
War is a business.
You need a split military and deep pocket motivation.
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